The Truth About Being a Man of Greatness in Business

Machine transcribed from the episode audio, lightly cleaned. Timestamps are approximate.

0:00
We went back to the hotel bar, little by little, everybody peels off and she and I are basically the only ones left. And the final question from her was, my room or yours? And by the grace of God, I went back to my own room by myself. I woke up the next morning and just felt like a hollow shell of a human being. Right on. Welcome everyone to the Alive with Courage podcast. I'm super excited to have Ryan Miller just from Men of Greatness with us. And I know we're just starting to get to know each other, but I can already tell there's a kindred spirit in what we're both up to. So I'm super excited to have you, man. Yeah, no, it's good. It's good to be here. Like, I mean, we've talked a little bit offline and I was saying, I love the fact that there's

0:38
still a little bit of a mystery to each one of us in getting to know each other and everybody else gets to experience like us figuring each other out, you know, as we go. So I think it's super cool. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, just to kind of set the duck and set the context for who you are and just what you feel called to give at this season of your life. I'd love to just hear just a little bit about your past and some of the moments that really sort of made you the leader and the fire that's in you now. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll say present day, follower of Christ. It's the most important thing to me in the world. And I'll share a little bit of why that is in a second. Husband to a wife of almost 26 years.

1:21
Wow. So praise God for that. That's also part of the story. I have a 24-year-old daughter and a 17-year-old daughter. And so my life is amazingly consumed with making sure that that's where I'm most present. I just love being with them. We spend a lot of time together. Outside of that, I consult and coach in two capacities. One is I've created a program called SOS. So for people that are familiar with EOS, we've done for the sales world what EOS did for people in ops. So created a systematized process to equip organizations with the tools to hire, onboard, train the right team to produce. And then we build out the entire process of lead gen, business development, sales conversion,

2:10
primarily in the insurance world and then also in the contractors and trade space. So there's about almost a 30-year background in sales is why that came to be. The other side of that is men of greatness. Because of my own story, I just feel called to serve men that are driven, that are pushing themselves hard. They're all around good guys, but they just get to this place in their life where they feel like something is missing. Maybe that's their wife knocking at their door or on their head a little bit. And so I want to help them before they go too far, whether that's stepping into some deep, dark sin or really just blowing up the life that God has given to them. And so then rewinding just very briefly to that.

2:57
So my primary catalyzing moment was in August of 2006. I had been married five years where we were not believers. I went to Chicago on a business trip. My wife and I had been having some arguments, fights, challenges around money and some other things. And I went with the intention thinking about cheating on my wife. Just I'm going to be away across the country, you know, living in Orange County. That's far enough. And as Satan would have it, there was a woman there who we connected with really quickly. And I think it was the second night we were there after all night partying and drinking out in downtown Chicago. We went back to the hotel bar. Little by little, everybody peels off and she and I are basically the only ones left.

3:40
And the final question from her was, my room or yours? And by the grace of God, I went back to my own room by myself. I woke up the next morning and just felt like a hollow shell of a human being. It was like on the outside. I was making six figures in my late twenties, which back then 20 years ago was really good money. A house in Orange County. My wife's driving a Mercedes, you know, we're spending money like crazy. All these metrics for success. Everyone's looking up to me and looking at me as a model. And I just felt so empty inside. And because I had grown up Catholic and walked away from the church, I don't really believe I ever had a relationship with God. I knew that God was out there and I'd never denied it completely.

4:19
I just didn't really get the concept. And so on the plane ride home, I sat with a coworker who was a Christian and just started asking questions, you know, and the idea was like, I just want to give God a shot. I tried everything else in my own means. It's not worked. I went into church that Sunday. That was a Wednesday. I went into church that Sunday. The assistant pastor was preaching, which we were so let down by because the senior guy wasn't there that we had heard about. We had to go see. This was the first time in church in forever. And he was preaching a sermon on what it meant to be a godly husband and a godly father. And of 800 people in that service that morning, that sermon was for me personally.

4:55
And so that was the day that I will say I made a decision to turn my life around and follow Christ. It took nine more really bumpy months to get there, but started to realize who I was in Christ, what my marriage was supposed to look like versus what it had looked like. I mean, I loved my wife. She was my best friend, but I just didn't understand how to lead well. I mean, my parents were divorced early. My mom had remarried three times, you know, just all these things. So that was catalyst number one. Catalyst number two was my wife and I and five of our friends were in the crowd in Las Vegas when the mass shooting happened back in 2017 at Route 91. We lost one of our close friends that night.

5:32
She was shot and killed right off my right shoulder. And my wife took a round of ammunition through and through her hat on her head. I mean, it missed her head by an eighth of an inch, if that. And so that was the second moment. And that moment was what really pulled me back into this. Like, if I'm going to go out into the world and I'm going to make an impact and I'm going to build businesses and I'm going to make money doing it. Like, if I don't hit the heart of the people, then what's the point of all this? You know, like God rescued me to do something more than just use my gifts and talents as gifts and talents. And so I just took that kind of analogy of the story of Joseph, what, you know, man meant

6:11
for evil, God meant for good. And I've just tried to write that story into my life. Damn, man. That's so beautiful. You, one of the things I noticed is like, you wrote a book called Wounds, right? And it, it seems to just go like, it goes right to the conversation that like most men aren't having, right? Like you're not sitting at lunch or in a boardroom talking about your wounds, right? And it seems like you've, you've really been able to sort of create a space to unlock that conversation for, for men. And then, and also even I'm thinking like, yes, let's say you open the conversation, but then it's like, I don't even know how to explore my wounds. I'm just curious, like what, like, why did this book come about and why is this sort of

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like one of the centerpieces of, of what your world revolves around? Yeah. So as most things in my life, I'm probably everybody's, it's like, there's just such an interesting story behind that. So, uh, in late 2021, I finally decided I wanted to write a book. I had been coaching and consulting for years. I had all this wisdom and experience and I've got to tell the world, you know? And so I hired a company, um, to help me, to coach me on writing, to publish, to edit all the stuff. Uh, they were the company that did, uh, can't hurt me by Goggins. So pretty well-known company out of Texas. I'm not even going to name my name because of what ended up happening. Um, so anyway, I hire them. I go to Austin, Texas.

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I go through like a writer's cohort there, come back and I start writing. And I basically in a nutshell, it's like, you know, the seven ways to hack your life and, you know, make money, all the stupid things that everybody else writes about. And, uh, I got 15,000 words into that manuscript and I couldn't write anymore. Like I just got stuck and it was stuff that I talked about. I was passionate about, I cared about it. I truly believed it was helping people, but I was stuck. And so I called my coach and he wasn't available. And so one of the other coaches who I'd met there, uh, this woman, she, um, she's like, so what's your problem? You know, like what's going on? And I said, I don't know. I just, I was flowing.

8:19
I said, I can't write. And she goes, well, why? And I said, honestly, I said, this is stupid. I said, this is just so dumb. Like, why do I want to write another book that everybody's written a million times over? And she said, well, what do you want to write about? I'm like, I don't know. Well, when you talk to people, what do they care most about? And I said, well, probably more than anything, my story. But who really cares about this guy from Yorba Linda, California? I don't have a name. I haven't accomplished anything magnificent. And she said, write that. And I was like, you are crazy, but I'll give it a shot. And so I took about a week of really recounting my life.

9:07
And I thought, man, like, this is actually what connects. I don't have to manufacture anything. I don't have to, like, I ended up, you know, creating a framework out of it, but I didn't have to do that. It was just kind of naturally flowing. And they helped me weave through story, connecting to story and how that works well and tracing through my life and how people can understand that. But that was the first time that I recognized that for most men, they have such hurt inside of them that they have been conditioned to withhold, to hide, to bury. But when given permission in the right spaces from the right people, they will open up.

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And I'm not necessarily saying that I earned that space. But every time I had done that, it was almost like instantaneously people were willing to just open up. So I thought, man. Way to get this out. Yeah. Yeah. So like, if I go first, if I just write, I mean, dude, I wrote stuff in there. I don't want my kids to see, like, not just about me, like things about my wife and other experiences. I didn't want to have to recount the story of my friend being killed because I didn't want to succeed on the back of like nothing like that. But again, the story of Joseph, it's clear that every single thing that happened to Joseph in the Old Testament was God working evil for good every single time. And I don't attribute myself to him and I don't connect like that, but it's like, then why

10:42
not me? And then why not you? So I just started writing and it was wild how well everything flowed. But one, but the last chapter and that was kind of my ministry hurt. And it was because I just freshly stepped down from ministry. And so I wasn't quite over it in the way that I thought I was. Um, anyway, so that's really why it came about was I just wanted to be a guy to go first. And if one person, I mean, I want to reach hundreds of thousands of people, millions, whatever, but if one person could be impacted positively, then it was all going to be worth it. That's beautiful. Yeah. I love that. Just that simple concept of like, who's going to go first? Like I, I resonate with that when I'm in a crew of guys and you're, you're all sitting

11:28
there and you're like, the question was asked and no one's talking. Right. And, and I, I often feel that tug on my heart too. It was just like, yeah, just you go first. Like whoever's going to be vulnerable first is going to crack the ice. And well, then, you know, what's crazy just about that. Sorry. But like from a male, from a, a masculine male perspective, which I believe we need way more of in society today. Um, when we think of that idea of going first, it's who's going to jump off the cliff first. Uh, who's going to take the biggest business risk first, uh, who, whatever it is, right. When it comes to the toughness side of things, we all get that in the, in, in the masculine world, world, in the male world.

12:07
So that's an easy concept to grasp when it's about proving myself to be tough enough, strong enough, brave enough. But when it comes to being vulnerable, it's the thing that we're most afraid of. I'm not going first. Are you crazy? I'm not going to open up in front of you. And so I think like when, when it's a willingness to put ourself out there, when the reward is very high, almost every guy will overcome crazy fears to jump off the cliff. Yeah. But when it comes to showing cracks in the armor, few people, even in the most protected, confidential, safe, comfortable environments, guys are very, very slow to open up. And I understand why, but it's just such a shame because it's typically the thing that's

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holding us back from everything that we dream about on the other side. Yeah. That's so true. I know recently I've been just noticing just in my friend circle, there's a language that's starting to be spoken of like, I'm going to take a risk. Like, and so they'll, they'll sort of preload what they're about to open up with or whatever. And I've loved hearing that because it's, it is, it's like, it's, Hey, this is your masculine heart, that adventure risk, um, part of you that's wired for that. And why the hell can't it happen, you know, in a vulnerable moment, you know, you can say, Hey, I'm going to take a risk here. I don't know what's going to happen here as I say this, but here we go. So, you know, so I love that reframing.

13:30
Um, I, um, so I love playing in this. I love looking at, um, and I know we share this, but when you, when you look at a man and you look at their longing and desire to perform, to create, to activate, to offer their strength to the world, whether it's their family or in their business or whatever. Um, it's wild just to see how, how much capabilities is in a man or in a, in a leader. And then to watch that just get diminished because of, um, what I think you've talked about here is just some of these anchors or woundings that happened from the past. And, and I'd love for you just to talk about like what you mean by wound and how you notice it. Um, I almost think of it as like the kryptonite that just takes a man's strength out of them

14:14
is when he's, he's carrying these loads from the past that are then creating, uh, patterns and poses and false identities that, that, that just seem to, um, kill the imago day and the creativity that they're meant to bring to the world. Um, I'm just curious what you've noticed as you've worked with tons of men in this regard. Yeah. So when I talk about a wound, I would say that it is the repercussion, the consequence, the impact, uh, the result of something hurtful that's been done to us or by us. Um, and obviously that's a broad stroke, but I really feel like, um, yeah, that, that, that's how we incur them.

15:00
And again, what I have found in my own life. And then as I have tried to just listen to and, and, and yeah, and hear from other guys in the same regard, I think it always all comes back to identity. Um, which, you know, we've talked a little bit about previously. It's such a hard concept to grasp just this idea of like what our identity is, what that means. But no matter what, um, I, I can attribute almost, you could, you could name the wound. You can, you could name the sand, name the struggle, name the, whatever you will almost always be able to trace it back to something that has happened previous in our life that,

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uh, disrupted the path that God had us on. Um, so, you know, take for instance, um, uh, I mean, I can use my own life. So, um, I, by the time I was, let's see, I was 17, 16 or 17, I lose my virginity. Um, and so then I'm just a mad dash to start, you know, making up for, I guess what I thought was lost time. And so here I go, you know, on a run. Um, so that's happening as many women as I can sleep with. It's a really cool thing to do. Uh, I get into partying, pretty light drugs, mostly marijuana, a few other little things, but that happens. That's all kind of in my early teen years.

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As soon as I turned 21, I start gambling and it's not enough to just gamble a little bit, which I really, really, uh, warn people against. I think, again, that's a whole nother topic of conversation, but, um, but it just has to be more and more and more. And so that happens. Um, I get married to my best friend in the whole wide world. And as good as it was in the beginning, um, I start to feel the sense of like, man, I'm doing all these things. Why am I not getting equal return back? And even if I was, I didn't see it that way. So all these distortions are happening. And years later, I would look back and I would say, well, it's actually because when

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my parents divorced, when I was six, unbeknownst to me at six years old, as much as you miss your parents and you're sad and you want them around more, that moment fractured my understanding of who I was without knowing it, which is actually the most dangerous thing. Hmm. It caused me to believe that if I wasn't good enough for my dad to stay for me, then I must not be good enough for anybody. Hmm. And the only way to combat that in a sin filled world with a sin filled heart is to go prove to the world that I'm worthy. Go sleep with as many women as possible and talk about it. Go do is go, go party the hardest of everybody, go gamble the most of everybody, try and make

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sure that everybody knows how successful I am. Even in my own marriage, it's like you owe me because I've done for, it's just all trying to, to, to prove to other people that I'm good enough. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so like one wound, one thing, and then it creates a series of so many more. Um, and, and you can say, and I do to some degree, like I have an addictive personality. It's, it's far more under control now. I can usually put that on good things, not, not evil things. Um, but you know, people will say, well, you just have an addictive personality. It's like, no, not really. I have a distortion that was created very early in my life.

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And so then my personality, my own human flesh and will takes over and it tries to fill it with things that are going to make me feel better. Yeah. Because if I can fix my identity, then I'm good again. Um, and so that's just one example of how I just, I see over and over and over again, like guys that, man, they, they have one small failure and all of a sudden the world comes apart, you know, at 45 years old. And I'm like, do you, do you ever think that maybe this was a 15 or 20 or 30 year ago thing? No, no, I'm so over that stuff. Just always will trace backwards. What do you do when, when like, um, you ask that question and they're like, I can't think of anything, you know, or like, I don't, I don't know.

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And, and I, I would imagine that like, it's very easy to keep moving and keep coping and keep trying to run the same coping play, you know, to keep moving in life. Like we try to do that as men, just as a survival. But I'm curious, like, what are the, what are like the telltales that you notice in a man when you're, you're talking to him and you're just like, wait a minute, like, like there's gotta be something else running this, this ship here that maybe you're not aware of, or what do you, what do you notice? The first thing I notice is they try and move past it very quickly. We are just hardwired to fix. Yeah. And so just give me the model to move forward and I'm good. So that's usually one, uh, sign there.

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Um, beyond that, I would say that not as much a sign as, but more of just an understanding of the fact that, um, if we can't fix it quickly, oftentimes we will just move past it. And so I try and, um, I don't use this term in a manipulative way, but I just try and play the game with them, which is okay. Let's talk about present and how we can fix what's going on, you know, to improve, to get better, whatever. At the same time, help me to understand. So as one, just, I'll try and tell the story very quickly, but a couple of years ago, this woman reaches out to me and she says, uh, I, I know you through LinkedIn.

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I was referred to you by a friend. My husband was extremely successful and his business crumbled and he's been stuck in the basement for the last six months and he doesn't know what to do with himself. He's still a good husband. He's still a good father, but he just doesn't know what to do with himself. So I get on the phone with him and have a conversation and he's like, I just need help. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. But we're going to have to figure out like what got us here. And he was very, very hesitant to even work with me, but he agreed to because his wife was really pushing him to like, Hey bro, you got to do something with yourself, you know? And they weren't hurting for money. It was nothing like that.

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It was just, she was sad seeing him just kind of wasting away. And he was in his late thirties at best. So we meet and we start talking and I start getting some tells, but I can't figure out exactly what has gone on to lead to this point. I mean, this guy built one of the largest franchises of this business unit that he was in of any other one in the country. Every other, there was hundreds and hundreds of franchises across the country. He owned about a dozen or so of them, every other franchisee, when they bought into it, corporate sent them to him to learn. This guy was magic. The only reason his business crumbled was because of the economy had nothing to do with him at all. He didn't make any mistakes, but he owned it all.

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So we were probably three months in and making really good progress, just helping him to figure out like, what could I do next? And what's going to make me feel valuable? And being a husband and a father is valuable, even if you're not doing anything professionally. So I was trying to help him with some of that identity stuff. And then dude, like three and a half months in, we were just talking about something very random. So he was a star high school and collegiate baseball player. He was on a pathway to go make it to the pros and had an injury and just didn't quite make it. And so we were talking about that one day and all of a sudden he tells me this story about the fact that he was with his buddies in college and they all, I forgot, they did something

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really bad, like illegal, not him, but all the rest of the guys, but he knew about it and he confronted them and he was like, Hey, you know, I just, I think what you guys have done, like you need to own up to this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He goes like, I will never out you, but you know, and you think you need to do it. They jumped him and beat the living shit out of him. And, and that was 15, 18 years ago. And I, I listened to him tell the story and we were on zoom and I said, how does that make you feel? And he goes, man, I'm so pissed. And I go, no, no, no, no. I said, how did it make you feel when that happened? He said, I felt so alone and so abandoned by the people that I thought were supposed to

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care about me the most. He said, so I determined from that point forward that I was never going to put myself in a position where I would ever be vulnerable like that again. And I was like, Oh, I said, so let me ask you this question. I said, you failed. You say you failed in this business. I said, do you really care about that? Or I said, for the first time in your life since that time, do you feel like you're finally exposed and you're vulnerable to other people's judgment of your failure? He's like, I never thought about that before. And he actually didn't even care about what other people thought about him. It reminded him of what he thought about himself in that moment and how weak and incapable he

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was helpless. And so here he is sitting in the basement with all this genius inside of him, all the support from all his wife, his kids, all these people around him. And all he keeps thinking of himself is now people know just how weak and vulnerable I am. Guess what? I actually think I'm weak and vulnerable now. And he couldn't get out of his own way. And dude, it was magical. Like we had made some cool progress. He, in the next three months, we worked together for about nine months, I think. But in the next three months, turned around, figured out a new business, invested all of his time, effort, energy, money into it. And as best as I know, it's been a couple of years now, is killing it in the new business

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and realizes that actually God crumbled the last business on purpose to put him in this one because this is what he was really called to. And I was just like, oh my gosh. So all that to say, it was like, it was almost accidental. I really feel it was just a spirit of God awakening that moment at a perfect time in our relationship. Because I think if he would have told me that much earlier, he probably wouldn't have trusted me enough to be that vulnerable about how it actually made him feel versus just the story itself. So anyway, long story to that is just sometimes I just need to be really patient and I will just keep going first. I will just keep offering up ideas. I will just keep offering up thoughts, but I'm always, yeah, but also always just praying

26:05
that God is going to move because I mean, you would agree, right? Like the best we could ever be as a coach to somebody else, we are nothing without the spirit of God moving through us. Like we can solve some practical world problems, but we will never solve the problems of the heart without the spirit working through us. So that's where I try and just like, okay, Lord, help me, show me, reveal this to me or to him or to somebody, you know? There's been such a, I'm a big Jamie Winship fan and he has that beautiful question. Like, what do you want me to know about? Like just very open-ended question. And just to be able to sit across from a client and just be like, okay, like internally, you're

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just like, what do you want me to know about or whoever it is you're working with? And it's that, um, that question has been so helpful for me just to sort of sit in that, like, it's, it's that wonderment. It's like, you know, this guy way better than I do. Um, and can you use me in this season? Um, so I'm curious, what do you think it was? I mean, I love that example. That's such a powerful example. Um, what do you think, cause you mentioned identity earlier. What do you think it was about what, what happened in his identity structure that shifted in that moment or in other clients you've worked with where that, that flip happens or that, that exchange, so to speak, where it's like, I was living as the, the, the weak

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failure in my basement. Right. These are like, I am statements. I'm a failure. I'm weak. Like, and to, to now, like, like I'm powerful, I'm strong. I can create again. Like I, I just, that's a very mysterious, uh, exchange right there. And I'm curious, like, how would you put words to that exchange? What have you noticed over the years? So one of my favorite stories in all of scripture is in Mark chapter nine, Mark chapter nine. Um, this dad with this possessed child goes to Jesus and wants his kid to be healed. And he basically says like, you know, Jesus is like, what do you want me to do? He's like, well, if you would heal my kid.

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And Jesus's response is like, if I like what? Yeah. And if you're able, right. Yeah. And the father's response is, I believe help my unbelief. And that is sucks, such a paradoxical, you know, like what, but I think that's the reality of, this is why I love working with people that are either following Christ or are at least open to that idea, because if they don't know Jesus, identity work just doesn't work. You know, I mean, it's always going to be a false identity. Um, so for clients, for conversations I have, I think that's, that's where the flip starts to happen is I've always been told that I am a new creation in Christ, that in Christ,

29:03
I am loved, that I am eternally worthy, eternally valuable, that I'm a son of the creator of this, like all these things. I believe, I believe. And I, and I don't think that most guys that I encounter deny that truth at the same time, we were talking offline before this. Um, and, and this to me too, like, but then what do I believe about myself when I have a bad month in business? And am I, am I really that good? Am I really doing what God has called me to do? Am I capable? Or you see a peer, like I've got peers that I've been doing this for 15 years. I've got peers that have been doing this for three, four, five years that are doing 10 times

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what I'm doing. And the question oftentimes becomes what's wrong with me? What's my problem? You know, I believe Lord. I believe I'm on the right path. I believe that you've equipped me. You know, uh, Ephesians 2 10 says for we are his workmanship, creating Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand, before the world was created. God predestined for me to have these specific gifts and talents to sit across from you and have this conversation right now that praise God will help one guy listening. You know, that's nuts, nuts. I believe that with my whole heart, but gosh, do I struggle to believe that when things get hard. And so that's what I try to equip men with probably more than anything is, well, I'm going

30:40
to continue to remind you, not my words, not my frameworks, not my ideas of who you are in Jesus. And we'll look to scripture. We're just going to continue to go back to, you think you are your sin. That's who you once were. That is no longer who you are. Um, when you put your worth and value in what, in the ways you perform, the awards you've received, what you're chasing. I'm like, dude, that scrap metal. When you were at your worst, Christ died on the cross for you, right? Like those truths have to exist. If we're going to survive in this world, nevermind thrive, just survive. So that's first. Then from that, then it's like, okay, let's talk about the real world realities of failure, of struggle, of hurt, of anxiety.

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When I feel those things, that's my unbelief starting to come into play. Not experiencing. The experience is true. It's real. And even the feelings are real, but it's like, why am I feeling those things? Well, I typically feel those things because of the reality of the situation, but then also because I have forgotten the truth of who I am in Jesus. Yeah. And so I go through this little exercise, which is just teaching guys to tell themselves the truth. And so the truth is I feel this way. That's really true. I don't want to negate that feeling unless you're getting really irrational. The truth I feel. Yes. Yeah. And then the truth of who I am in Jesus and how do I close that gap both in the long term.

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So I stopped living in that old identity, but then also in the moment, like, bro, you're, you're about to jump off a cliff. I've got to like bring you back, you know? And so how do I do that? Like in the moment? Okay. Yes, this failure happened. Yes. This really sucks. Yes. This hurts. But let's look at the reality of your life right now. Like, let's look at what's going on. Let's try to understand what this failure is actually doing for you. You know, what are you going to learn from it? How's God using that? If God used all of these epic failures all throughout scripture, I think he can use our measly little ones too, you know? Yeah. So it's almost like, you know, when that failure happens, our, our, our perspective just goes

32:41
like this. We can only see this little slice of life. And it's like, you're inviting people back into the full spectrum of the full, the full story. Yeah. Larger story. Well, I mean, I, I keep going back to the story of Joseph just because it's such a fascinating one for me. I mean, Job is very similar too, but I write about the story of Joseph a few times in my book, but I mean, you think about it when we read that now, thousands of years later. So he gets sold into slavery by his own family thrown into a pit. Basically they're just hoping he's going to die. Right. Cause he just goes away. We read that and we're like, man, that sucks. But Joseph, you have no idea what's coming. Then he finally like gets into the King's court and he becomes like right-hand man to the King.

33:25
Dude, I told you like, look at this. And then the King's wife tries to like screw him over, seduce him in. He gets outed again. And it's like, don't worry, dude. It's just a seat. You know how many years that all happened, you know, over like we would die a thousand deaths, you know, to have gone through that. But for us, we look at that and we go, dude, look at his life. Look at the end. Not only did that story get written in such a beautiful way, but he got to be the one to provide for the very people that sold him out. The people that loved him the most, you know, like. You got to decide. Oh my gosh. In a weird way. How amazing would that be to be able to right the wrong of the people that wronged us?

34:13
You know, I mean, just what a beautiful picture, obviously, ultimately a picture of Jesus. But it's like, when we look at that in hindsight, of course, you know, Jesus is life, same thing. It's like, dude, the guy got whooped, beaten, poked, prodded, bled out, all these things. But look what it did. And so, again, it's just for us. I'm trying to like take this step back and man, I'm just taking my own medicine because this season of life has been hard for me. And I'm just trying to remind myself of like, Lord, I hate this. I don't want this. Please change this. But if none of those things are possible right now, then show me what I need to do in the midst of it. And again, for me and for every single person I've stepped through this with, it always ends

35:00
up being such a beautiful picture of redemption, of growth, of reconciliation, and then opportunity. Because when we're bearing all of these wounds, all of these hurts, all of this doubt, I am hindering my ability to succeed to the utmost. And again, success, the achievement or end of a purpose. It's not money. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. Yeah. It would be like, again, this is not a shot at people that don't have one, but nobody in their right mind would say that the most optimal way to be a running back for the LA Rams is to do it without one leg. You just wouldn't do that, right? Why then would we handicap ourselves by not fully healing and understanding who God has

35:51
made us to be so we can go out and maximize that on the other side? Totally. Yeah. And that's where you feel most alive. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I'm curious for you, you mentioned this season of struggle, like, if you're, and just, I'm with you in this too, like when you're, you have these days and it's like, we get spun out and these false identities are these in the wound, someone steps on the wound again. And you're like, ah, like I, you know, everything floods back in. Um, I'm curious, like how you're kind of returning back, like what, what's the identity that you're holding onto? Or like, how are you, like, when you think of the handholds that you handhold back onto in the midst of like the storm, like trying to whip you off the wall?

36:32
Like what, how do you like write yourself and what are you grabbing onto and holding onto? Like what's working? I should say. For me personally. Yeah. Just not like theoretically what's working, but what's, what's, what's actually working for you to get you back into your, your genius and your identity. Um, I just look at my wife. Yeah. Because I'll never, I, I just, I'll never get over this. Like my wife is apart from Jesus, the most important thing in my life. And I would die for her. I would do anything for her. And I put myself back in that season where I was making a conscious choice to potentially destroy, forget what it was going to do to me to destroy her.

37:19
Mm. And so every time that I start to really spin out, I just look at her and I think to myself, man, God already rescued me from destroying the best thing of my life. Mm. And, and, and my salvation was more important than that for certain, but it's like my wife is so deeply connected to, which can be a very dangerous thing because God forbid if something ever happens to my wife and I lose my life, I have no idea what I will do. Mm. But she is like the, the worldly trophy of what Jesus did when he saved me that day. Yeah. And it's not always a quick fix for me.

38:04
It's not always like, okay, my marriage is amazing. So all this stuff can suck and I'm okay. But it is just this constant reminder, like dummy. Mm. The, the, I was having this conversation with a friend about a year ago when I was, when I was in a really, really bad spot again. Mm. Mm. And I was like, okay, my faith in Jesus is so dialed in right now. It's just insane. Mm. Mm. I'm, I was 47 at the time. I'm 48 years old right now. And internally, my body is the healthiest it's ever been in my life. Mm. My relationship with my wife and kids is way too good. Like, I don't even know how that's possible. Mm. I am living out my dream to serve people in the capacity that I get to.

38:53
Mm. But my business is in a bad spot. If I had to choose, I had to get rid of one of those five things. You're shaking your head. You know, right. What's my answer? Business. I'll blow that damn thing up all day long. Yeah. And so how dare I let that thing destroy these four things? Yeah. Yes. And none of those four things are guaranteed except my faith in Jesus. But like, none of those things are truly guaranteed. Um, again, but my faith. And so that's just the concert. I have to keep going back to that. And then practically what that means, because I will reason myself out of that is then I have to surround myself with people that will tell me the truth and remind me of that, but not candy coated.

39:36
So my wife is the perfect one for that. Like, I just go to her and I'm like, Hey, here's what's going on. And she will always, I need to remind you of this first. Mm. Once, once you get this, then we can talk about how to work this thing out. And then I've got a tight circle of a couple of other guys that they just don't hold back. Yeah. And so that, that to me practically is what helps to like reset my, um, belief in what is true and then allows me to take the next step. And, and again, like, I don't want to. Over spiritualize because I think that some people hear this stuff and they're like, okay, so if I just believe in Jesus more, if I just, my belief gets stronger, if my practices get stronger, if I remind me, then it's going to be easier.

40:20
No way. It's still sucks. Yeah. Like when I had that, that most recent revelation, uh, probably in April or may of 2025, I still went on to have a brutal 2025, except the last two months of the year, which then it like, I had this insane November, December of 2025 from a revenue perspective. I'm like, I'm back. I'm back. It's amazing. Lord. Thank you. The whole way. And then January happened and it was just like, and I went off another cliff. And from January until June of this year, I generated less revenue collectively in those six months than I had in any single month the previous year.

41:06
And dude, I was like back spiraling to some degree, but Lord, what is going on? What am I doing? What am I doing wrong? Am I not worthy? Am I not valuable? All these things. Yeah. Yeah. I reset myself again. And as God has been so gracious to me, and again, it's not always a promise. July, I did four times what I had done in all those months combined. I was nuts. And so again, I just think it's just this constant rollercoaster of understanding that I'm going to be in it, in the groove. I'm going to feel really good about it. I'm going to have good days. I'm going to have miserable ones too, but the one thing that I have to continue to remind myself of and guys that I work with is the identity work can never stop.

41:43
Just like we have to keep preaching the gospel to ourselves every single day. It's not for the moment of salvation. It's a daily reminder. I think we also have to continue to preach the truth of our identity to us on a day-to-day basis. Like I created this charge for myself that I have to read pretty often because it's just a reminder of like, Ryan, this is who you are. And this is what God has called you to do. The outcomes, those are up to the Lord. And really, if anything, I'm just going to start blaming him. Like if I don't get the revenue I need, it's like, God, that's your fault. I guess we're going to have to figure something else out, you know? Yeah. So good. There's a lot of cool things tying together here.

42:18
I just went on a, um, I led a retreat and we went to K38 down in Baja, like, uh, over this last weekend. And one of the things we got to do was, um, we were practicing listening and listening for others. And we were kind of like writing, you know, it's always a gamble. Like, will guys actually listen? And then will they actually like do the journaling and writing, like to actually get it out? But it was so cool because at the end of the trip, we had these documents essentially that each man got to read and hear what the identity that other people were. Experiencing of them, you know, throughout the weekend. And, and, um, I think I noticed you, you really, um, you really care about like the brotherhood and like a crew of guys.

42:59
Like, I know you do one-on-one work, but there's also this like focus on how do we get a crew of guys in a room together. And I could just see that, like, if you don't have that as part of your, cause there's, there's Bible studies where you're like looking at the word and you're, you're trying to wrestle with it. And then there's like, then there's like groups that, like you were saying, those two or three guys or maybe three or four where it's like, they won't hold back in the things you need to hear. And then also the things you really need to hear, which is like, like the stuff where you might, there might be gaps in your life, but there's also the like, no, you, you can't walk out of this room without knowing this about you, you know?

43:34
And, and I think, um, that is like, that is such a piece of, of health. It's such a great piece of, um, like, like imagine if you met with that group every Friday after work and you actually got to just offload the week. Right. And just take the trash out of all the lies and all the agreements and all the junk that you picked up from the week and just get re identified with who you are to step into your weekend with your family. I mean, just that alone would, would just, just, just. Help you live light and free, which is how you're meant to live, you know, on the weekend. And so I, I'd love to hear you just chat a little bit about like the power of brotherhood and the power of like why, why it's important to, to really have a couple of crew of guys around you.

44:20
Yeah. Um, I've always been a, a guy that has a lot of friends. That's not like braggy, I guess just it is what it is. Um, and so I've always been grateful for that. And that got me into a lot of trouble early on, you know, it, it, it's been better in recent years, but, um, I just, I just recognize very much what you said. You know, when I, when I, when I think about what I want my life to look like, the relationships in there, I want to have relationships with people that know every bit of me that I never have to hide from. Mm-hmm. And that are going to equally do two things. They are going to wreck me and destroy me when they see me doing things that are wrecking and destroying me.

45:09
Mm-hmm. I don't want people to hold back. Yes. Um, at the same time, when I'm broken and beat up, I want them to be the first people to pick me up off the ground. When I go to war, I want them by my side. I want them in front of me. You know, like that, that, that's what I want. And so what I realized was, so my best friend, uh, we were born on the same street as small as we, you know, as, as, as young as we could be and be friends. We were, um, we had different seasons of like being super close and not, but by far in a way, um, uh, he and I were at route 91 together when the tragedy happened. It was his girlfriend that was killed that night. Um, and in recent years, we have gotten much closer.

45:51
I love him to death. Um, he is not a believer. Um, and, um, and, and I pray that for him all the time. We've actually had some conversations recently that, I don't know, maybe he hears this by accident. And I hate when I say this stuff about him because I just love him so much. But, um, anyway, so what I realized was is as close as we were all those years leading up to and before October 1st, 2017, we never got really, really deep. Um, there would be like meaningful things at times, but it just wasn't a regular thing. And that's very much the guy's kind of relationship. You know, we're bros and we play sports together and he was much better at sports than I was. Um, and, um, anyway, and then that happens.

46:36
And all of a sudden we're crying together for like two weeks straight every day. Yeah. So it gets a little bit more real and raw. And now, like, I am fortunate and grateful that, you know, we get to, so we walk together. Uh, we see each other on a decent occasion, but almost every single week, uh, one night after work, we just go walk for a couple of hours, put some 45 pound backpacks on and, and go walk up in the hills. And that's been a really like sweet time to be able to just kind of dive in deeper fun stuff too. But, you know, it's like what's going on. But even then, even then, because we do not share a joint understanding of Jesus, there will always be something left out. Um, and man, I hate that because I don't love anybody more than him except my wife and my two kids.

47:28
Right. Like, what do you think that piece is? Like, what's, what is it? If Jesus was dropped in, like, what does it then access or open up? Do you think for the relationship? I think then he gains an understanding of who he really is because he's a really smart guy. Uh, he was, uh, uh, major league baseball player now in a successful career, but he's had some man, just really jacked up relationships, um, since, uh, Nicole was, uh, was killed. And, uh, he has a child not with that mom anymore. And this was not his fault, actually. Like it was, she's a nut bag. Um, anyway, so I've just, I've watched so much hurt and brokenness in his life. And, uh, we've had recent conversations about Christianity and, uh, he was hurt, uh, by a Christian coach, uh, early on in his career that just was talking out one side of his mouth, Jesus, and out the other side of his mouth was just a monster of a human being.

48:21
And so, you know, when we don't know Jesus, it just leaves so much to the unknown. We start to define terms, ideas, relationships. I don't think like maybe he would be able to love me in a different way. I don't think he would love me anymore, any less. I mean, I think that he's probably the person again, outside of my wife that loves me unconditionally. Like I could do the worst thing and he, and he would like, I could kill somebody and he would be there to watch me go to jail, but like support me the whole time in the trial. Yeah. Um, but there's, there's just still that like peace of, man, if you don't know Jesus, then we just, we will not share the same value perfectly.

49:09
Yeah. You know? And so then when it comes to forging a relationship or raising our children and he's a good dad, he's a good guy to the, to the woman that he's dating now, but it's like, but there could be more, you know, there could be something just a little bit different. And, uh, anyway, so I just, I think that like, that's that side of it. And so when I saw that kind of bringing it back to your initial question, sorry, I just like run on, but like, so then when I see this need for brotherhood, it's like, I don't need friends. Most guys don't need friends. Even if you're lonely, what you need is somebody that is going to be in it with you. That's where true Christian brotherhood comes into play.

49:51
Like when we think of all the one another's throughout scripture that are obviously to be done to one another as believers. But when I think about who Peter, James, and John were not just to Jesus, but to each other. And then who the 11 disciples were to not just to Jesus, but to each other. I mean, dude, they were in it. They were getting whooped on. They were getting mocked and they just continued to have each other's backs. There was never a time when they were screwing each other over because they were all on the same mission. And I think that that's where true Christian brotherhood comes into play is like, I don't need to play a game with you. I don't need to put up a false identity. I don't need to brag about anything.

50:31
I just get to be honest about all the struggles, about all the needs, about all the desires. And if I can find that, like this is where I really look up to and envy people that have been in special forces. Because when you talk to one of those guys, dude, those guys, I mean, think about some of the stories of like Michael Murphy and like carrying people out. Like they will do anything. And they trust 100% that that person is going to do everything and anything in their power to protect them as they're trying to protect themselves and the other person. So like that I think is what it is. It's deep in the trenches. It's going to war over everything. And that's what I want to create. I think the shame is, is it's so rare that when we say, man, if we can only just have two or three, the truth of the matter is, is that because we probably could only find two or three.

51:21
Because what would be really amazing is, could you imagine being in a tribe of 100 guys that were all like that? Could you imagine? We live in Orange County, California. Tens of thousands of guys here, right? Hundreds of thousands of guys here. Even hundreds of thousands of Christians probably, at least to call themselves that. Could you imagine if you had 100 Christian guys that every day were prayerfully going to war for you, that you got to see on a regular basis, that your Friday get together wasn't with two, but was with 20 of them. And you were in each other's finances and marriage and desires and dreams and hopes. And every single time you needed something, they're like, dude, I got it.

51:59
Hey, I can help you with this. Like, could you imagine what that would be like? That's what I'm after. And selfishly, I'm after it for myself first because I spent so many years trying to be the guy. And now I realize I just want to be a guy in the middle of all those guys. Yeah. So good, man. Oh, I love that vision. I was just even thinking, you know, in like business challenge, you know, one of the five and you're like, I'm having a down month and imagine if 20 guys just rallied around you and we're like, let's get out our phones and figure out how to find that. That's it. You know, yes. Whatever, whatever it takes, you know, to get you whole again. Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. So just to wrap here, like, you know, you just laid out your vision and I know you're actively creating it, right?

52:46
Yeah. Like, this is what you're up to. So for guys that are just hungry and curious to like step into a community like that, like what's, how do they, how do they interview or get, get connected in that way? Yeah. I mean the best way. So all of my like outbound communication happens through Instagram. The handle is at the Ryan James Miller. It's not because I think I'm important. It's because Ryan James Miller was not available. So at the Ryan James Miller, YouTube, same thing. And so that's where a lot of the outbound communication goes. I have a website. It is mogbrotherhood.com. So that's where all the men of greatness stuff is. There's a community there. And then we do a 12 week, 12 man cohort based alignment program.

53:31
It's called the aligned man. We'll be launching another one here pretty soon, but they, they will go live about once every other month. And so I would just say that, you know, for anybody that's interested in that conversation, that's a great space to start. And I welcome every conversation. I want to impact however many people God will, will will me to do that. But I would say this as much as I don't ever want to turn people away from me, especially at a time when I'm trying to build and grow this thing thing. I actually would say this. I would encourage every single guy that's listening to go find the guy that you already know first, because I think that, and then maybe you can both come and meet me, you know, but, but, but I think that we all have somebody.

54:17
It's already there. Yeah. That maybe we're just not taking enough time with or not giving enough time to, or that we've thought about, but are a little bit scared about how we enter into that. And so I would just say, I would encourage that first, you know, is like find your guy or just create a better rhythm with the guy. Um, for me right now, the unfortunate, like I have a lot of really good friends. The unfortunate thing for me is those guys. For me, it's three guys in Vancouver, Canada, in Denver, Colorado, and in Tampa, Florida. So we each zoom one-to-one once a week with each other. And then we get together once a month for about four hours over zoom.

55:02
And then once a quarter, we try to fly to one someplace in the country, not Canada, but no, uh, and, and meet with each other. Um, and, and so like, it's cool, but I want that in my office, in your Belinda once a week, because to carve out a half a day, once a week, couple of hours, once a week to get those guys would just be amazing. Mm-hmm . . . . So yeah, I'm just, I'm yearning for like, we, like our community, it's, it's online, the program part of it's online. We do some in-person retreats, but like, man, I just, I hunger. Could we get it in person? Oh my gosh, I hunger for, man, if you're in Orange County and you're listening to this, like, that's who I want to hit me up.

55:49
Yeah. Because I want to make those kind of relationships, whether, you know, you join what I do or we just become friends, like you and I, like, I mean, we randomly get introduced to each other, not randomly, but, you know, we get introduced to each other. And now I feel like, dude, we're connected. Mm-hmm . . . . And if we're intentional about it, there's so much more that we could do to support each other, you know, to help each other, whatever. So anyway, so that's what I'm really after. That's rad. Yeah. I love what you said about the, like, there's a guy in your life because it really points to the resource that God has already put around you. Like, we don't believe in a God who's just like, sorry, Ryan, you got to go figure this thing out in the desert with no resource and no ability.

56:29
Like, he's already resourced you. And I love that concept of, like, looking around and being like, where's the resource, man? And whether it's the guy or even just listening to this podcast, there's resource, you know? So, reach out, you know, this sounds so beautiful. So, thank you, man, for this time. It was such a gift to hear your heart and what you're creating. Like, it's really needed and really powerful. So, appreciate you, brother. No, man. It's an honor. And I love guys like you doing what you're doing because, you know, when you get isolated, just as an entrepreneur, it's easy to kind of think at times like, man, is anybody else thinking like this, doing this? Yeah. And to know that there's another one and another one.

57:11
And so, to see what you're doing and all the ways that you're journeying and being real about what you're doing and pouring into other guys. I mean, dude, it's amazing. So, thank you. And thank you for the platform to be able to sit with you, too. Love it, bro. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Cool. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Ryan.